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Fan1, give it to 996, he knows more big picture football than me. I'll be his assistant.
Laura, I like that approach. Because you know the big name kid is going to be depth chart conscious. We all heard that Tunsil's mom didn't like a coach(former?) here and our payroll isn't as big as Ole Miss's. However, he may have been freaked out by Cam at LT. Cam could leave early, but maybe not. One could say RT will most likely be available, as soon as the '13 season, but Tunsil has played LT his entire HS career and that is where players make the big $.
If FSU wasn't Denson's dream school, he may have looked elsewhere with two junior starters entrenched at OG. Although, they may have mentioned Matias moving back outside this year or next if Cam does in fact leave early.
I posted a few weeks back how half the starters on the NFC final four teams were from non BCS schools or the likes of Wake, Rutgers and Iowa State. The Pats protect their all universe QB with a guy from SE Missouri State, one from Houston and two from Fresno State.
So you don't need all 4 and 5* recruits on the OL. But I agree having Golson and Tunsil would be a nice luxury for '13.
996, you are right about Stork. He should call 'gap' to Matias or Tre on a play like that. I think those types of pre snap recognition's are his greatest weakness as a Center. I think that is more of Barron's strength, especially since he played Center at a good program like St Thomas Aquinas. But he wasn't ready physically the last two years. Maybe he will be in '13, which would allow Stork to move to LG(Matias to RT) or directly to RT.
FFF, I'm not there everyday to watch Trickett coach and see how he treats the players. A lot of the guys that played for him love him, obviously the ones that have been successful. I coached with some old timers and they were just miserable sob's. I don't think that type of coaching maximizes a kids success, on and off the field. You have to know when to push and when to hit the break. Or when to yell and when to give a kid a pat on the back. I felt as a player when I liked and respected a coach, that I would run through a wall for them. Although, I had coaches that were dicks and I still ran through the wall because I loved the game and did so for my teammates and of course, the cheerleaders watching.
He would recruit better if he didnt have his finger constantly up his nose. Its gross.
lol Willy. He is like Spalding from 'Caddyshack".
Very good discussion. There are a couple of things that I would add. There is no denying the success that Chris had running the OZ, but the caliber of defenses increased after his injury. Also, defenses simply started slanting to the playside at the snap to take advantage of a glaring weakness of the OL. In an OZ blocking scheme, the back's first read is the playside DE. If the tackle can hook the DE, the back bounces to the outside. If block isn't reached, then his 2nd read is the NG. If the center reaches the block, then the back attacks the B gap. Because the defense is already slanting, it makes these two blocks impossible to be reached. Now, a backside cut off block is vital, so the back can cut into the A gap behind the penetrating NG. On several occasions this block was non existent. To be fair, there were times the backs missed the cut when it was available.
I believe the OL personnel better fits the IZ blocking scheme as it relies on vertical displacement to create cut back lanes, as opposed to, OZ schemes that rely on horizontal displacement that create cut up lanes. As has been stated, why the uncovered lineman doesn't double the NG before going to the second level is baffling.
93, good addition.
As good as Watson was this past year, he had some false start penalties later in the year and as teams like VT, GT and Florida slanted to the play side, he was slow off the ball and whiffed on that block. I think he feared jumping, especially on the road when he struggled to hear the cadence.
This exact block is what worries me about Bobby Hart. He didn't seem interested as a frosh on the backside of a running play. With the zone scheme, these blocks are as important as the play side blocks. But in fairness to him, he seemed a lot more aggressive this year in his limited reps. I think the light is coming on now and it's his time to shine.
Canolee, I hope you are right about Hart.
93, I hope so too.
I think the other options at RT are Matias and Stork, but that would shake up the continuity. I think Carter is an option, as would a healthy.....gulp....Cloth. I know most think Cloth is the worst OL we have ever signed, but if he was healthy and won the job, people would be shocked. Although, I'm not sure they would admit it.
And then you always could talk Mitchell into a potential starting role, opposed to fighting between third and fourth string at DT.
If at all possible, I'd like to keep the interior 3 together. Especially as we move towards an offense with IZ as a base run.
I'd like to see Bobby Hart step up and take the job he was recruited for.
Both backs and personnel have shown they are better running IZ. We should see a QB who's well suited to that. Hopefully, that and having more of a "coaching" presence in certain meeting rooms helps this offense take a step forward.
996, not sure what you are referring to when you mention the QB position in relation to the blocking scheme.
EJ was most accurate within 20 yards and was better from shotgun, so we operated mostly from shotgun and used OZ as a base run.
I'm of the opinion we see more from under center, more downhill running.
Related question from a die-hard skeptic:
For those who have watched Rick Trickett coach, really, how much of his reputation is true, and how much is just legend? Is he really more of a son of a bitch than other coaches? Does he grab players by the face mask and tell them they suck? Does he offer zero praise?
What's the real poop on him? Tough coach but within the normal range of tough coaches and with outsized reputation? Or outlier, more ridiculous than even the toughest of the rest?
I was certain that this thread was going to end up being a big old circular pissing contest. Wow was I wrong. Interesting. Informative. In depth. Respectful. A real learning experience. Nice job everybody.
Don't be so quick to forgive traits which have likely prohibited him from pulling in a top lineman class over 6-years here.... When in fact, the rest of the program is pulling a top-5 frequently.
They have a place for people with great technique, who are too harsh on kids, and have a narrow scope of people they can tolerate working with.... it's called the NFL... and there are plenty of great coaches there, who would step on a college field and fail miserably.
Can you imagine Bellichek at the college level?
50% of the the job requirements for a college coach = recruiting. Would your co-workers be willing to step in and cover 50% of your responsibilities, because you were the best at the other 50%?
/f you downvoter. burn
This post has been edited 3 times, most recently by FsuFanForever 14 months ago
Yes, this has been perhaps the most interesting and enjoyable thread I've ever seen on a football message board. Thanks all.
I understand that recruiting is part of the process. To me though, Oline is MORE about teaching that recruiting. I would love for him to like Odell where kids eat him up and would die for him. But remember, it wasn't long away that Odell missed on some (Torrey Davis, Marvin Austin Etc) that people were calling for his head. Everyone has strengths and weaknesses. It's when its a liability that I have an issue. Like a huge FSU fan growing up said no way I'll play for that man (like the lineman said when he left for Nebraska). I would much rather have a good coach and ok recruited than ok or bad coach and great recruiter (Lane Kiffin, Ed Orgeron, Ron Zook?) Its a team effort and if the player needs some cooing, let some other coaches help with that and get the signature and then let him turn them into great NFL ready lineman. Didn't DV you but I'll even you up. Just healthy discussion about how to get the best out of the team.
This post was edited by dsb05c 14 months ago
We spend a lot of time talking about RT and the Oline but what accountability are we putting on the RBs? Running with this type of blocking scheme is not as natural as when these kids were in HS....In HS it was the 3 back through the 5 hole and a cut back if nothing was there and freelancing the rest. These kids in HS were using more instincts than what the zone warrants. In the zone blocking scheme RBs have more reads (call it a homework assignment on each play) then they are used too. I think it takes a specail RB to do well in this scheme.
CT was the best RB in the Trick era and if he wasn't 180 soaking wet and could stay healthy....He would be a high draft pick (I would love to see im catch on somewher in the NFL as a return/3rd down guy). He hit the inside holes hard and at full speed. He had patience on the OZ, read his blocks, planted his foot and was driving through a hole.
Wilder: He seems to have the patience on the OZ but lets face it...if you are a defender would you rather see him coming at you at full speed with his shoulders sqare or running parallel to the line with his shoulders pointing at the sidelines? The one thing I would really like to see from him this year is improvement on running between the tackles. He is a freight train AFTER first contact but he seems to shuffle towards the line instead of making a read and exploding towards the hole (thiinking too much?). Scary good speciman but are we using/teaching him the right way??? Dont know.
Freeman: He is the oppositie IMHO to Wilder. He hits the inside holes at full speed and runs hard. However, to the outside he seems to rely too much on quickness and not enough on reading and planting....
Green: In some ways sitting out his SR year may help him in the offense. He will be getting first hand teacihing with less bad habits to break. I am jacked about this kid coming in....also props to his dad.... He handled the recruiting much better than most parents these days....
This post was edited by thebear612 14 months ago
The 2011 season, fully met my definition of being a liability (and likely yours too, if you honestly look back on it)... and in my opinion (now and then) our program made a mistake in retaining him.
Before that, I remember Ponder running for his life vs. every good defensive line we encountered, even with the great 5 senior OL we had then. I don't ever recall us being able to pick up a 3rd down a 1 vs. a good team, since he's been here....
2012 is probably the best line he's fielded... and the only legitimate ammunition his supporters have at this point.
My problem with using 2012 as the measuring stick, is that everything we are seeing with his recruiting points to 2011 happening again. So lets be honest with ourselves.... 2-years from now, with a few injuries....2011 likely happens again....
2011 should have been enough for any school which is pulling top-5 classes in all the other positions to say "Enough". We don't have to repeat history in order to learn from it.
Trickett supporters can also point to what he did with the previous regime's players when he first arrived--assembled a serviceable line with lightweights, underclassmen and 2-star types, a line that wasn't powerful but could pass protect, and what a drastic improvement it was from what came before.
But then nobody says that, given a group of players, Trickett cannot coach them up.
There are two questions about Trickett that have traction: (1) does his presence keep us from getting top talent? And (2) does he emphasize a scheme that is a mismatch for Jimbo's offensive design?
The IZ/OZ comments suggest that (2) might not be a problem, and we shall see.
I agree that on OL you'd rather have a good teacher than a good recruiter, but that is simply a false choice. Plenty of OL coaches can do both, and every other coach Jimbo has ever hired can do both.
Bear, interesting post. We absolutely had some short yardage woes this year that Jimbo commented in his Monday presser that the back made the wrong read.
I know everyone is down on Trickett's recruiting and it's valid.
That being said, were guys like Gran and Coley great recruiters, but just average position coaches? Gran has had elite RB's go high in the draft, but was that a matter of just having a physically superior talent at the position?
The TE position improved this past year, but the '11 group was by far the weak link of the team. Yes, even worse than a bad OL. But even in '12, NOL didn't always do what he was supposed to and both he and Haplea missed some critical blocks(sack on EJ that put us out of FG range against NC State, missed short yardage, etc...).
If this theory is correct, it goes to show you the importance most fans put on recruiting. I want top 5 classes every year too, but then you also have to develop them once they get on campus.
I agree Canolee, CJF has to find the right balance of recruiters and developmental coaches. Maybe it is time for Trick to retire. I just think that everyone has short memories and '11 where every injury occurred and we actually had to play a 17 y/o. '08 when ponder was a youngster and was still leaning to read a D, FSU leaned heavily on the line and we ran well that year. They pass protected most of thr year in '09 cuz the D was awful and we were in shootouts. After this offseason though (Hudson), I do believe Fisher will do what's best for the team and that includes moving on when it becomes obvious. I don't think he will be loyal to a fault like Bowden was. If Clint loses the starting job and decides to graduate instead of finishing his last year of eligibility, would not be surprised to see Trick retire.
GREAT THREAD. Upvotes all around!
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