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Below is Seminole72's post on another site.... I know RT is a favorite punching bag here but I found the below post he made very interesting.... Rather than beat each other to death on this....It is my hope that we can have a meaningful discussion on the topic as I can think of both positives AND negatives.... Furthermore please do not bash S72 (constructive criticism is fine of course) as I do not know if he is a member here and therefore can not defend himself.....
"I started a thread a week or so ago profiling the FSU OL that had made it to the NFL under RT. Unfortunately, some folks got so riled up that they couldn't keep from bashing Trickett and anyone who might not agree w/ them that the thread got gutted and locked by the mods. But this whole debate about RT's performance necessarily goes back to a look at what type of player and how many he is developing into the next level. So, I went and looked again and to compare and measure the validity of some previous posts here about FSU's lack of tradition in developing OL to the NFL, I went all the way back to 1960 and included only players who actually were drafted. No free agents. Here's what the numbers say:
Number of Draft choices from:
1960-69 (the Peterson era) 7
2010-present: 4 (including Watson)
1987-'00 (The Dynasty): 6
2007-present (Trickett era): 5
By leaving out Free Agents., I think some context is lost, but previously several posters insisted that FA players should not be considered. Of course this leaves off names like Jammie Dukes and Steve Gabbard as well as McMahon, and Boatman.
Anyway you look at the numbers, RT has produced more to the NFL in a shorter period of time than any other OL coach in FSU history. It is most interesting to observe that we only had 6 in the dynasty, but we had 8 from the Heggins-McHale era. So the quality of the OL development does not necessarily translate into outstanding offensive production. Conversely, having only 6 in the dynasty years where we consistently had dominant offenses, indicates that there is more to dominant offenses than just offensive line talent .
Everytime I look at this issue, I can't find any objective facts that prove that Trickett is not doing a solid job as OL coach."
Don't think that Trickett can't coach, its just that he can't recruit.
Stop with your facts and statistics bear! We prefer baseless bashing!
In all honesty, we are definitely struggling in getting the OL talent to Tally (obviously), but it amazes me how people just choose to gloss over the good this man has done with the line during his tenure here. Or does no one remember McHale?
This post was edited by jjam53 14 months ago
Its not about having individual good performers, its about a Cohesive unit that dominates the line of scrimmage.
And at times we have had both during Trickett's tenure. Now, let's see if we can get it again...
He can't recruit is that what you say or what Jimbo has stated? Let's look at this years class and I told myself I wasn't going to get into this battle. Now I ask you this, who knew that one kid would fall in love, while his parents wanted him in Tally? Who knew that one kids family would make him pick another college? Who knw that one if the first OL in this class would suffer a concussion? Now from what the experts stated this was not a very heavy class OL this year. I guess I'm kinda of puzzled when we talk about OL depth. FSU loss one OL, and if any of those guys we missed on would have come in and started I guess we are in trouble. Trickett doesn't just recruit OL, for the record he has had his hand in on a lot of top players. So to say he can't recruit is a bald face lie... People like to complain, at the end of the day the facts in which you stated doesn't lie.
To do what he has done at FSU with what he had to work with is unreal. You act as of FSU has always recruited OL at an alarming rate. Get over the hate he isn't going anywhere unless he walks away...
Ok, Ill hop on my soapbox....
RT is exactly who I thought he would be when he got here. A very good OL coach, loyal guy, and a tough hombre to play for. He is a below average recruiter. I will also add that I have had the opportunity to sit and chat with him on a few occasions, (while he chomps on unlit cigars.....) and he is definitely an entertaining, open and enlightening guy.
There are two reason IMHO he is not an all world recruiter... the first is that he is brutally honest. In a day where these kids are told they have a legitimate shot to come in and start as a true Frosh by every other school....he tells them them truth that it is unlikely... he also doesnt kiss these kids dairy airs....
Second, the kids he coaches who are also important in a teams recruiting are also brutally honest with recruits in what it will take to play for him. FSU finishes second on a lot of kids because when it is a tough decision between FSU and another Tier 1 team, the tie goes to the "nicer" coach.
Where recruiting bites us in the butt is not the starting 5...Trick can take someones throw offs and make them very very serviceable.... it is the depth that kills us in recruiting. There are only so many over achievers you can take that will overachieve. Trick says all the time that he plays his best 5... he has too because the drop off from 5 to 6 is big...then from 6 to 7 it is bigger...etc. When, not if.....someone gets hurt he has to adjust the line around which hurts the continuity of the line....and then someone gets healthy..they switch back,,,rinse, repeat.....
So in the end, where does that put us?
IMHO the problem is actually JF. When you have a very important teaching position where the coach is VERY good but lacks recruiting skills, the HC MUST step up and make it a major priority to have everyone else help the position. Just as Trickett helps some of our other FSU coaches with teaching ( he does it a LOT more than people realize) others have to step up and give him a boost in recruiting. It may be hard to teach an old dog new tricks, but the HC must also make sure that position coaches are respected both on and off the field by their players and I am not sure it happens here.
In the end...I do like that RT is on the staff but we have to give him some help in getting more able bodies or we have to move in another directions...
OK, Im off my soap box.
Exactly. The fact that the Dynasty era produced so few drafted o-linemen further proves this point. To use the number of individual successes to prove or disprove an OL coach's effectiveness is extremely flawed. Very few make it to the NFL compared to the number that participate in college athletics. Individual development is only part of the equation.
Great thread. We lack depth, but do have a very talented starting 5. Trickett did manage that.
I wonder if he is a good teacher but poor motivator. I have heard of him "running kids off." That sounds like a coach doing half his job. The job is teaching PLUS motivation, and different kids respond to different approaches. Presented with a kid who is not responding, a complete coach finds a way to get the kid into it. Half a coach just runs him off. Don't know if that's RT's m.o., but if it is, I'd be critical.
Overall though, this opening analysis does show that the idea that once we had talented OLs but now we don't is a myth.
I'll say this: we did not used to have prototypical body types at OT versus OG as we do now. We would play a 6-1 guy at tackle if he was one of our best 5 linemen. Not sure we take that approach now.
Thanks for this OP. I think the RT issue is the most interesting one in the program for discussion, but discussion is usually shut down by anger on both sides pretty quickly.
This post was edited by googolplex 14 months ago
It's not relevant to the past that frustrates us its relevant to what we believe we could be. Most of us believe if we hired Bloomgren or another late 30s, early 40s OL coach who's good and young and more of a player's coach that we'd recruit way better. Its just an opinion.
I will say this much--SOMETHING is going on that makes us incapable of converting 3rd and 1, even against truly horrible teams.
I believe it is scheme, not talent, and not poor teaching. And it still may involve RT.
Are you serious?? My post was in support of Trickett---did you even read it, or just decide to spout off? The recruiting of OL has dipped the last two classes---I didn't blame Trickett for that, but lets not pretend they were stellar either. There's a million reasons why recruiting dips, and I did not in any way throw blame on Trickett for that.
You talk about hate--try reading the posts next time.
We've known about Klepal's concussion issues since at least the summer if I remember correctly. That's plenty of time to get another guy in. I was reading about Golson looking around for the last few months. He's from Alabama and we lost his main recruiter. Very easy to see that him decommitting was a possibility and to have a back-up plan or three. This is especially true since we signed zero high school olineman last year, and the two juco's we did sign are both 1 and done.
What he's had to work with at FSU is almost entirely of his doing save for his first year or two. We've had to move guys from the dline multiple times in order to field at least an average oline. On average he has run off more than 2 players per year. Knowing this we should never sign less than 5 lineman in a class. This is not entirely Trickett's fault but it appears that his reputation is what eliminates us from many of the top lineman before things even get started. It's not that he can't recruit. It's that many players do not want to be coached by a guy like Trickett is perceived to be (or their parents don't want them to be), which is a cusser and a yeller. He's probably a perfectly acceptable recruiter so long as the player he's going after doesn't have to spend the next 4/5 years being coached by him.
I would wager if we struggle again this year on 3rd and short, in recruiting the oline, and/or lose 3 or more games Trickett will be our ex oline coach.
This post was edited by dennisnole 14 months ago
This is my biggest problem. Teams like bama in short yardage or down on the goaline get done. 3rd and 1 and you know what's coming and you still can't stop it. That's what I don't get. We aren't good enough to just line up and pound somebody for 1 measly little yard and kills drives and momentum. In the last 3 or 4 years there's been countless times this has occurred and it has been our biggest problem on offense.
It cost us NC st last year. USF bowdens final year. I know the d sucked that year but there were 3 times inside the 5 where we failed to put it in. Nc St 3 years ago we failed miserably inside the 5. You get bama inside the 5 with 1st and goal then you can hang it up. They are putting it in 90% of the time. That's what championship teams do.
Chris Nee of 247Sports.com. You can follow me on twitter @CNee247.
Ouch, that does not sound like a problem with an easy solution.
Actually it is, I hope/think it will be solved in this class (or JF is not nearly as smart as think he is). Other coaches (such as Odell recruiting 5* OT Prince, the Carolinas also have a lot of OL talent which I expect Napier to recruit) will hopefully play a larger role in recruiting OL this year. It is obviously the area of focus for the 2014 class and I think JF will let the rest of the coaches know that. I'm an optimist and Trickett and JF defender but if we do not do much better in the current class on the OL than we have previously that will change. Also, everyone should hope Maryland does bad and fires Edsall/Lockesly, this would hopefully allow us to clean up in the DMV including Prince.
This post was edited by GoNolez2004 14 months ago
Tip of the hat sir.
Jimbo's worked with this guy for 6+ years now... and Jeff Cameron and people posting on message boards have proven to have a better understanding (in my opinion) of the Trickett dynamic than the head coach.
Why do I come to this conclusion?
Because...the action taken (or lack thereof) proves it.
Something is blinding Fisher. He better hope it's his ego and not just incompetence.... because he has a fighters chance at overcoming his ego... if he's incompetent, this is going to be a painful, painful, painful few years.
This post was edited by FsuFanForever 14 months ago
Pretty easy solution iyam
Jimbo doesn't help with his playcalling. Last year we had a 6-4 QB and I can't recall a single time we went with a simple QB sneak on 3rd or 4th and inches. Instead he's giving in to a back seven yards deep or going with a slow developing outside run. We had one of these against GaTech where the Jackets didn't have a man over center! But here comes Wilder. Maybe that's on EJ too for not just audibling to a sneak, IDK.
I'm also not a fan of ZBS but that's a thread for another day.
Jimbo is partially to blame. But when do the players get held accountable?? Yeah some plays may be bad calls but the bottom line comes down to EXECUTION. In the game of football things don't always go the way you plan. But there are times where our guys just get whipped when it matters most. 3rd and 1 I don't care what kind of running play it is you beat the man in front of you and get that yard. Just like the play when wilder got hit in the backfield three yards short and fought his way thru it to get the first down! How did he get hit 3 yards deep?? Somebody didn't execute. You think Jimbo called a play that allowed a guy to come free like that?? If we played with the effort wilder played with on that play EVERY PLAY we would ELITE.
My high school coach broke it down like this to our team once. The game is 60 minutes. With a 35 second play clock the average ball is snapped within the last 6 seconds. The actual play only last on average of 5 seconds. Say you have 50 offensive plays. That is only 2 minutes and 50 seconds of actual work/contact. With the training these guys go thru year round that effort Wilder used on that one play should happen every play. In this confrence our talent is way better than every team outside of Clemson. Of course every play isn't gonna work but when it matters most our guys should get the job done. I heard a Jarvis Jones interview about DJ Fluker and he said during the SEC championship game Fluker would come to the line and tell them they are running behind him. That tells me no matter if they do know the play Fluker was gonna whoop the guy in front of him and get the job done. And we don't have that YET but we should. I see short yardage plays like the Oklahoma drill in practice. The defense knows the play but it doesn't matter as long as you execute and whoop your man
Bama runs primarily zone.
So people need to quit the "let's stop running finesse zone and run power like Bama", because it's just not true.
I just don't prefer it. Most offenses feature elements of both. I think a man blocking scheme is easier for a young, inexperienced player to adjust to.
Bama can run whatever they want because they simply recruit better up front and were doing so before they started racking up titles. I think its a misconception that they just run straight ahead and don't run any zone. And I don't care what they do FWIW.
As for the poster blaming execution, I agree to a point. The players have to carry out their assignments and win their matchups. But when they're not doing so in certain situations then you have to adjust and coach around it. I'm sorry but not having your QB just fall forward for six inches when the defense has no one over center is poor coaching.
This post was edited by BigErn 14 months ago
I dont doubt that most teams run a variety of blocking schemes. Bama runs some zone, we run some man.
But it made an impression on me that Camolee's analysis of the SEC Champ game had Alabama running a good deal more man blocking, and in particular steeper angles--trying to knock your man back rather than move him over or just turn him--than we do.
Canolee can correct me if I misremember.
I do think our blocking schemes might allow more penetration than others by not even bothering to try to move the LOS back, opting instead for just "holding" the line and turning or shielding defenders.
I would assume that they ran certain plays because of what they saw from Georgia on film. Makes a lot of sense, too. You're going to neutralize Jarvis Jones by forcing him to engage at POA instead of running outside zone and trying to stretch that front laterally. We did the same where applicable - if I remember right we ran a lot of man blocking vs BC, probably from scouting.
And yeah, most teams run a mix of man and zone blocking. Our base run was outside zone, because it meshed well with what the OL could do, what Chris Thompson could do, and EJ was better from gun, also.
You're describing the different between inside and outside zone in your last paragraph. With IZ you're trying to create a vertical stretch to open up cut back lanes, with OZ you're trying to create a horizontal stretch to create cut back lanes.
We ran OZ primarily from gun because it fit our personnel well. I'd expect to see an offense based on IZ, power O, and vertical play action passing next year. That will fit the personnel better next year. The QBs will be better suited. EJ, for all his accuracy inside 20 yards was very poor throwing over 20 in the air. He also operated primarily from gun, hence the OZ base which Chris fit well in. 8/32 both ran IZ better than they did OZ.
Note the last few games of the season how much better they ran downhill than on stretch plays.
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