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JF as head coach- Im starting to form a different opinion

  • My opinion is being swayed by the Peter Principal where an individual is promoted within an organization to the point of incompetence. CJF has a great football mind and has the ability to design and implement a successful offense. Players want to be coached by a guy like Fisher and it is this that I think has given rise to our FSU program. Not necessarily his head coaching abilities.

    The central theme on the board is head coach JF should hire an OC and play caller because he seems to have difficulty in performing both roles. Instead of following the pack mentality I think CJF should hire a strong assistant head coach and concentrate on what he is best at doing "running an offense".

    The point of my statement is not to provide yet another venue for the same group of posters to spew their blablabla 3rd- and 2, zone read-vs- I formation, pass on this play or that play but more to the point of lets not promote CJF to the point of incompetency.

    Some food for thought. Do you think CJF becomes a great head coach if he relinquishes his OC participation. His residual role would be relegated to motivator, big picture game strategy, father/teacher of men figure, organization management. None of which I see as his strong suits.

    Who thinks Gruden makes a great head coach? But who would doubt his ability to put a well prepared offense on the field.

    I will be interested in your comments

    Life is good. Now lets go win another championship.

  • I can't follow all of that. What is the point you're trying to make?

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  • The way I'm understanding what you're saying, and I have no idea if I'm right, but the steady improvement of our team proves Jimbo's incompetence?

  • I don't understand a lot of your post.

    1) Peter Principal suggests that he was a very good OC to begin with. He wasn't. He was far from elite. Our administration even knew that. What they saw instead, was his visions and understanding of what it took to take the program to the next level in his next position. So your Peter Principal analogy is broken because he was never an elite, or even excellent OC.

    2) Does he have the skill set to be a CEO? Ask yourself, who pushed for the indoor practice facility? Who brought us into the 21st century of S&C and nutrition? Who asked for the football dorm on campus? Who made all these excellent hires the first time around, putting together a staff that could not only recruit at an elite level, but also get the defense to perform at one? Who now has made a second round of hires with guys that are excellent coaches and recruiters?

    My question for you is, how do you not see that Jimbo the visionary trumps Jimbo the OC everyday of the week? Said another way, YES, I whole heartedly feel Jimbo will be a damn good HC when he allows an OC to take over the duties of playcalling and running the offense on gameday.

    I said this on another board, I think the problem is two fold. 1) Jimbo is very controlling and wants to run his offense. 2) Coley isn't providing much in terms of X's and O's and philosophy when it comes to giving Jimbo input.

    **This will be said with some backlash, but as much as we will miss James Coley the recruiter and person, the next OC that will come IMO after next season (when Coley moves on to do what he would be great at - CEO) will have Jimbo's confidence because he will be an experienced, and brilliant X's and O's guy who absolutely knows how to run an offense.

  • I find this an interesting concept, and up front will need to think on it more

    I, personally, have never been previously impressed by Jimbo as an OC, either here or at any of his previous stops. Never understood why so many were excited about JF other than it was somebody other than JB. Even then as now his offenses always seemed to be basically boring and predictable and were successful mainly due to his superior recruiting.

    My initial impression then was ... "Really, this is the best we could do" ... Although he has been Ok at each stop it wasn't until I saw his organizational planning skills, which along with his recruiting and evaluation skills, that I thought him as being a much better general manager or head coach which is why I think he should be looking at the bigger picture than with the smaller details.

    I look at other teams and see poor organization, but simpler tactics and methodology, and kids being able to adapt within a couple of years. Coaches coaching instead to constant yelling, etc. I know he is heavy into the details, and that is good I think, but he also needs to step back and be the general, not a lieutenant thrust into a captaincy above his calling. He needs to be the calm big picture guy. When he calms down, he does extremely well guiding the ship, but like many when in panic mode he jumps without thinking and as a result we look constantly discombobulated. The general needs to be watching all sides of the ball, both defensively and offensively, not just half of the team, otherwise he needs to go back to being just an offensive coordinator. In many ways I could see him as an outstanding AD more so than a coach at this moment, but also realize he is still learning to be a HC. I understand his having an ego, and that can also be good if controlled and used within proper planning and guidance

    Hope this wasn't out of line

  • Bowden4Prez,

    Your last point asserts that when Jimbo replaces Coley, he will do so with a "brilliant Xs and Os guy who absolutely knows how to run an offense." What makes you believe he won't just hire another Coley--a great recruiter who is inexperienced as an OC and will not call plays?

    I'm in agreement with you that about the rest of your observation regarding Jimbo, but I think you are underestimating his intentions to always have his fingerprints over every aspect of the offense for a very long time.

  • no it is jimbos competence in the changes he has brought that have resulted in the programs steady improvement especially his involvement in the offense. I think that taking away his OC participation only leaves responsibilities that are not his best skill set (he will then have been promoted to the point of incompetence). so delegate those other duties to an assistant HC that has that strong skill set.

    Life is good. Now lets go win another championship.

  • Because I actually do believe Jimbo when he says it was in his 5 year plan. He knew what he wanted to do, but needed to do it in steps. You can't just throw it all together with the state of the program as it was a few years ago. So he wanted to make sure he could at least control the offense.

    But if you read between the lines, and that poster with knowledge above that posted about what he had heard from a prominent booster, Jimbo intends to hire an elite OC. He just wants to do it when this thing is starting to hum a little so that giving that up is just a final piece of the puzzle.

    I'd argue he should be doing it next year, but at the same time, he isn't firing Coley. He is trying to help him move on and find that CEO HCing position he is looking for. And IMO, he will get it next off-season. I am a little shocked that FIU didn't make a hard run at him this year.

  • Crux of argument comes down to where the improvement is coming from:
    -Personnel (Better recruiting of stronger/faster players that fit together)
    -Technique coaching (Skill taught during practice)
    -Game day coaching (Play calling during the game)
    -Class gains (Players gaining experience and moving up from freshman-to-seniors)

    The following is just looking at Jimbo's offense... (and ignoring the defense)

    My doubts of Jimbo are centered around my belief that the vast majority of FSU's gains have been mainly tied to Personnel and Class Gains, both of which peaked this year. The problem with exclusively having Personnel/Class gains, is what happens during the seasons you lose a lot of Seniors (next year).

    When I watch the USF, NC State, Miami, Virginia Tech, Florida, NIU games from this year... I see a Technique/Game Day Coaching that looks the exact same as it did during his prior 6-years. If the Technique/Game Day Coaching is indeed not improving, then we have just seen our peak potential under Fisher... During down years, we are a 9-5/8-4 team and during up years, we are a 12-3/13-2 team.

    Last year, if I told you that the team we beat in a bowl game would lose more players, have a significantly harder schedule, go undefeated next year and be playing for the national championship... You would have thought we were in very good shape.

    If my assessment is correct, next year will be very telling.

    This post has been edited 2 times, most recently by FsuFanForever 15 months ago

  • Other coaches can do both and therefore are not spread too thin. Spurrier among others.

    People will post that coaches can be hc and OC and therefore Jimbo can be successful at both tasks. It is clear at this point In Jimbo's career he cannot be successful doing both at the same time. Crystal clear.

    Most coaches in his position would have admitted this fact (after UVA last year) and already hired an OC. Were we damaged by Jimbo's inability to accept his current limitations? OH YEAH!!! We're not playing tomorrow night. We are viewed by the world as underachievers by everyone except some message board apologists. We did not underachieve because of the defense.

    we are ALL assuming Jimbo will be a better hc if we get a real OC. That is an assumption that is an unknown at this point.

    1. Will Jimbo still scream and then pout if a play does not work & then refuse to run it for a half for whatever reason. it is clear Jimbo's emotions cause him to lose focus in the games.

    2. Will Jimbo meddle in the offense even with a real OC (I think there is a huge risk of this) to the point that the playcalling will suck as much as it of does now. Someone that has known him since being at Auburn him well told me that he think the OC needs to be older than Jimbo and well established. He believes that turning over playcalling to Coley or an OC equal of a Pruitt will fail because Jimbo will not leave them alone enough to just execute their gameplan and nothing will improve on the field. He really thinks we need an NFL because an NFL OC will not hesitate to tell Jimbo to butt out and let the OC do his job.

    He will also need to let an oc tailor the offense to a qb's abilities. Quite frankly, Jimbo has proven in the last 2 years he is not good at this task. He appears to be unwilling to do it. Think of Shula going form Woodley to Marino and how he stood his offense on its head all because of a different skillset of the new qb.

    3. Jimbo is great football mind. However, I think there is a valid debate as to how effective he has been as an OC. the problem of a million yards but only 10 points was a common one for him at LSU. He never has been a great (lots of UF people I know described him as mediocre) OC. In the end it is about putting points on the board. Tk thought he was the best person who would take the job of babysitting the program while Bobby's bumbled towards the end of his tenure. Remember, and I emphasize, take the job. In the end, he may be no different than a general like Von Paulus being a great staff strategician and be a poor (at least not great) general in the field.

    He is here. However, it is necessary to remember how he became OC and then HCIW. In an open search for hc he would not have gotten an interview much less the job. So, in essence, Jimbo is here now because TK did not want the program to go into the abyss and did not want Bobby to embarrass himself in his last couple of years. If Bobby had left after 2004 like TK tried to get him to do Jimbo is never here in an any capacity much less as hc.

    4. Jimbo not getting an OC is not really delaying his evaluation as hc. It is part of the evaluation. A part after year 3 he has failed. In the end, we may be seeing the Peter Principle in full effect. Jimbo may be someone who will never be a great hc. After 3 years we should gotten our answer on that issue. The law of averages say that if if the jury is still out after 3 years on the answer as to whether he will be a great hc will probably be no.

    As I have already posted, there are more doubts now than there were 2 years ago. However, I will give him the benefit of the doubt and say Jimbo ever becoming a great hc is still an unknown.

    This post has been edited 3 times, most recently by TNOLE27 15 months ago

  • Jimbo is trying to do what very very very few coaches are capable of doing, being the HC and playcaller. There is a reason few can pull it off.

  • yep, I think he needs to delegate and teach

    This post was edited by warchant user 3 15 months ago

  • Spurrier doesn't do both anymore and he was one of the greatest offensive coaches/minds in recent history. The game has changed considerably since then.

    Regardless what bearing does some other coach have on Jimbo's ability to do both. Jimbo is an emotional coach. Perhaps this hinders him more when calling plays than it does others. I'd think his emotions would have less effect on our performance if there were less opportunities. I've seen play calls come in late b/c Jimbo was still busy fuming about the previous play or yelling at a player. I think Jimbo would be much better off if he only had to think about the larger picture during the game i.e. timeouts, clock management, whether to go for it on 4th down, special teams plays, motivational techniques, working the refs, and things like whether to run or pass in certain situations.

    Problem with Jimbo is he tries to do all of the aforementioned and call plays at the same time. I think this is the biggest reason he makes some truly head scratching decisions sometimes. He's just too involved in everything and as a result we have issues with all of it on occasion. That it's only occasionally an issue makes me think he would be much better by not calling plays and thus having more time to think about the others aspects of gameday strategy.

    Also, his role hasn't really changed all that much on gameday since he became head coach. BB might have worked the officials a little but that didn't stop Jimbo from doing it too. BB might have had final say on whether to go for it or kick but I'm sure Jimbo was still telling him what he thought. Jimbo had almost complete autonomy on offense. So perhaps that's why we were still having the same issues this year that we have had since his first year as oc.

    This post was edited by dennisnole 15 months ago

  • Jimbo is an elite recruiter and has put a plan in place for us to be a success. He is an average gameday coach and turns to a below average playcaller when he has all the HC duties on his plate. I think everything is solved if he gives up playcalling and I think his gameday skills (clock management, dumb challenges, etc.) improve if hes not worried about calling the play. 3rd down, 4th quarter, and we call a timeout, I expect him to have input or call the play but he needs to let someone call the plays full time

  • Forgot to mention that I completely agree that Jimbo is not our head coach if he hadn't become oc first. He had to know that the best way for him to get a job at a program like FSU as a 1st time head coach was to become oc. He then worked himself into the hciw and finally hc.

    The above makes me realize Jimbo's big picture brilliance. He took a job that might have paid less than a couple of others but which would get him to where he wanted to be quicker. He might have been able to get a hc gig sooner than he did at FSU but it wouldn't have been at a top 10 football program.

  • I disagree with your main premise. According to you, if Jimbo were stripped of his OC duties "his residual role would be relegated to motivator, big picture game strategy, father/teacher of men figure, organization management. None of which I see as his strong suits." Those ARE his strong suits imo. His weakness is implementing a consistently successful offense

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  • Excellent excellent post! Don't know if anyone's said it more clearly. +1

    This post was edited by napoleon 15 months ago

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    "I never knew I had a foot until I noticed it was on your neck"

  • and also had to assume that we would not just buy him out and get who we wanted for the job. He wouldn't have been the #1 candidate even after being oc except for WVU giving him the leverage to get the HCIW thing in place.

    If there was not a buyout he would have gone to WVU. There was a dispute within WVU/Sexton as to whom was going to pay for the buyout. Sexton had convinced WVU we would come after the buyout until Tk said FSU wanted its money. This is one reason i chuckle at everyone singing Sexton's praises. Truly sloppy work by him on that one.

    Also I think some of you misunderstand the peter Principle. It is not being intellectually incapable of performing your job. It just means you were promoted one level higher than was your highest level where you could perform well and for whatever reason you are not capable of overcoming that deficiency.

    There could be a number of reasons to find that the peter Principle is in full effect. e.g., emotions adversely affecting performance and in inability to keep your emotions in check despite that fact.

    Will Jimbo getting an oc help that fact? it should if he stays out of the way.

    This post was edited by TNOLE27 15 months ago

  • This is my BIG fear about Jimbo. Can he lay aside his ego? I hope so.

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    "I never knew I had a foot until I noticed it was on your neck"

  • Really, the peter principle is not Jimbo's issue... it is understanding that others can do what he can do.

    It reminds me of the 'IT' guy that ends up managing the department, but can't ever accept that someone else can do the nuts and bolts bs just as well as he does. So, instead of managing the department, he continues operating like an employee and doing the IT work.

    When Jimbo gets past that, and stops being the HC, OC, and QB coach, he will become elite. Yes, I think he was an awesome OC, even this year, his numbers don't lie. But, the fact is, being a great OC isn't that unusual. He just needs to accept there are others out there (even Coley) who can do that, and move on and focus only on the HC spot.

  • good points. This really isn't a quibble but a difference. I think Jimbo has a great football mind. however, I have never thought Jimbo was a great oc. i have always thought he is between (from a production standpoint) avg. to good. Purely from a point production standpoint given his talent on offense he is below avg. This goes back to his LSU days.

    I really think that the orange bowl was indicative of Jimbo as an oc-lots of yards but far too few points given the yardage.

    A new oc may bring better results

  • I think we need to remember this is only his 3rd year as a head coach. There is a lot of growing left to do. I just hope he is able to look at things objectively and grow from mistakes. Ideally your AD would coach him, but I think that won't happen with the current admin. Very few coaches seem to be ultra successful in their 1st head coaching job. Bobby Bowden was hung in effigy at West Virginia. He still did a lot of learning after he got to FSU. Even during the dynasty years he would do things that made you shake your head. One thing I think Jimbo needs to learn is the people skills required to deal with the boosters. Bobby was a master at this and it allowed him more latitude (maybe too much). I think Jimbo has what it takes to be a good head coach. It comes down to his ability to adapt. Some coaches need to be fired to learn to put their ego aside. Hopefully this is not the case with Jimbo. Only time will tell.

  • It is possible that we are getting an OC and this is why we are waiting for the RB coach hire. Coley could be promoted to asst head coach and recruiting coordinator. The QBC or RBC could come in as OC. That gives Coley (who has done a lot for our program) the credibility for the next level and gives room for an OC.