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If Ponder vs. EJ was indeed the problem, then Jimbo had poor judgement in leaving EJ as his starter for as long as he did.
So do I trust his judgement next time?
If what you say is even remotely true, Jimbo needs to be shown the door immediately. By the way, I am not saying that it is or isn't, but no player or parent can ever dictate what happens on any team, on any level.
Bowden4prez, you are probably right in these arguments, but I suspect someone has his own personal agenda and is about casting about for stuff to fit that agenda. imho
I disagree with Trickett. He reads defenses better than Manuels does. I do not think he is the answer but he could have beaten everyone but uf on this schedule. coker could have as well.
And no, you do not tell the press. What Manuel's dad said does not matter. I do not care what he said. That was not the point. Manuel not following Jimbo's instructions is the point.
do you think EJ would have told the press I am getting benched because I am doing what my dad and not what my coach is telling me to do.
Ej getting benched for a game would crush recruiting? LMAO.
FWIW, Jimbo is waaaaay to much of a control freak to let his qb to essentially tell him to pound sand. I do not believe if Jimbo thought eJ was not running just to protect his draft status and because of his father telling him not to he would kept him on the field.
NOT FOR ONE MINUTE.
Besides, EJ had this same issue last year.
Look, maybe I didn't phrase that correctly. I don't believe Jimbo caved to the parent, or to EJ. He still called rushing plays. They dialed back using it as a crutch, and developed the passing attack more. HOWEVER, EJ ran tenatively because he didn't want to get hurt. He started sliding instead of taking the hit. But overall, his mentaility in that aspect of the game changed due to the multiple injuries. Said another way, EJ wasn't the same runner in '12 as he was in '11. That is a fact. And that is due to the fact that he didn't want to get hurt anymore.
NOW, blame Jimbo for not benching him after that? And what, play a kid that would lose more football games for us? Jimbo's job is to assess the talent and decide who gives us the best chance to win, and he did. As much as we would have loved Coker to be ready, he wasn't. As much as we would have loved Trickett to be able to make all the throws, he couldn't, and he certainly was zero threat to run.
So yes, EJ was still the best option. But it amazes me that people doubt what I have said. Watch the way EJ ran this year. Pretty distinct difference from last season.
He did follow the instructions. However, he ran like a p*ssy this year. Period. It wasn't direct disobedience. He still ran the play. He just ran tenative, and as a guy protecting himself for the NFL. And when Jimbo saw that, coupled with how the conversations went this off-season about preparing him for the pros, opening more of the passing game, etc, it caused Jimbo to not call as many runs. Hell, EJ rarely kept on the zone read this year. RARELY.
And you are wrong. Coker would have lost us games because he isn't Manziel. Manziel was one of the most decorated high school passers in the country out of high school. Kid was incredible in high school. Coker came from very simple offense in Alabama and was no where near polished enough to start at this level this year. And Trickett? Re-watch Wake Forest and see what happens when you are zero threat to run, and teams throw the kitchen sink of zone packages at you. The love fest for Trickett is terrible. The kid is likely transfering at the end of spring ball.
Once we lost to NC State, starting the backup would be trading losses this year for losses next year....I would have made that call, because I'm all-or-nothing when it comes to what I am playing for and we weren't going to be playing for a title this year, after that loss. Orange bowl is nice, but not nicer than developing your future.
Judgement is everything with a coach... recognizing when a kid isn't progressing quickly...having backup plans for injuries... Getting backups REP's when games are in hand...His judgement up until this point has been underwhelming with the recruiting classes/talent we have fielded.
Orange bowl brings 15 million, brings a national TV audience to FSU, and puts FSU down in South Florida where kids come watch us practice as almost an unofficial visit.
I am glad not everybody thinks the way you do. This isn't a video game. And losing this year doesn't guarantee that starter isn't going to slip next year and take us out of contention anyway. Crappy way to think, but to each their own.
If fisher would have benched Manuel there is a good chance the current players would have turn on him, especially the upperclassmen. It would have been terrible for recruiting as well because he would have came off as a major asshole and who show that he doesn't care about his players future.
Whoa, whoa, whoa, Bowden4Prez I don't have an agenda, any more than any one else on the board does. I stated earlier in this thread that I like JF as a HC (I listed several reasons why); I simply said I don't think he's been a consistently effective OC or a stellar QB coach. Going back to his days at LSU he's been far from inspiring IMO as an OC; maybe he's better as a QB coach than what I'm giving him credit for. But I think of LaMarcus Russell who was a complete disaster, Ponder who only blossomed once he left FSU, and Manuel who is much more refined than when he came here, but still seriously flawed. I'm not that impressed.
Having said this, this is one of the most thoughtful, most interesting threads of the year. I find your posts particularly compelling.
The Future is Now.
napoleon, we just disagree, that's all. Ponder IMO wouldn't have never been a first rounder if he had gone somewhere else. Jimbo refined his mechanics, his pocket awareness is great, and he ran a very effective offense in 2009. Ponder was the pure work of a great QB coach. EJ got as far as he was capable of. Russell was up for Heisman and left the number 1 overall draft pick. Not sure how anyone could call that a disaster. Hell, his senior year numbers: 3129 29-8. That's pretty damn impresssive for a kid that scored a record low on the wonderlic for the NFL.
Prior to Russell, LSU never landed one of those elite kids at QB. The first elite kid they landed after Russell was Periloux who turned out to be a complete nut job.
To be honest, Winston is going to be the highest rated kid Jimbo has gotten a chance to work with. Will be interesting to watch that development. Have a feeling, with Craig leaving, that puts a little added pressure on Jimbo to start Winston. Because if he loses that battle to Coker, I think he'll transfer.
This post was edited by Bowden4prez 18 months ago
It's hard to tell how good Ponder was in college because he was so often injured. Clearly, Jimbo taught him a lot, as you said, or he wouldn't've been a first rounder. I don't know what it is about Jimbo: he seems to facilitate growth in QBs and stifle them at the same time. I feel that once Ponder left FSU he played much more freely. EJ is a perfect example. He has certainly grown under Jimbo, but he's also become one of the most tentative QBs I've ever seen. He seems to always have one eye on the sidelines. I feel like Jimbo's gotten deep into his psyche, and not always in a good way. Look at how free and easy Teddy Bridgewater plays. I think if Jimbo didn't micromanage EJ he would've been much more consistent. Regarding LaMarcus, he was a star in college, but utterly unprepared for the pros. That's what I mean by a disaster. A lot of that had to do with his character (not Jimbo's fault). He was never a great QB. His size and potential had so much to do with why he was drafted #1.
I agree with you about Winston. He's a natural. I'm fearful that Jimbo will "overcoach" him. Let the kid play.
This post has been edited 2 times, most recently by napoleon 18 months ago
Manziel was a 3 star recruit that many recruited as a safety, Coker was a 3 star QB recruit because he played on an option team and didn't throw as much. I find the hate for Trickett amusing. Sure he struggled against Wake, he was a RS freshman playing behind one of the worst OL's in college football and Wake threw the kitchen sink at him. EJ moved the ball when he came in, but he also threw a couple of picks and some others that could have been picked.
Your buddies are the ones that get it. Like the guy that said jimbos offense is stupid because Rashad Green should have 10-15 touches per game. Per game. Please find me the last college WR that had 120-180 touches in a year. The kid would not likely live through the season.
I agree, let's scrap the most prolific offense this school has ever had! We only ever played to 10 defenses back in the good ol' days. And every good offense has its best performances against the toughest defenses.
See if you can spot the ridiculous statement. Hint: it's all of them.
This post was edited by Cuthbert 18 months ago
Again, i do not doubt his dad said that. I also do not question EJ was tenative running except for options (when you are going to hit the hardest BTW).
Honestly, EJ was tenative all games after clemson in all phases except for the option attack.
As to 2011, by UF he was refusing to run. There were many times he had 1/2 of the field empty and would not run.
I also think Jimbo had Ej a bit scared of his own shadow.
This post was edited by TNOLE27 18 months ago
You do understand the difference here right? I don't care about star ranking. Manziel threw for 3600 yards 45 TDs and 5 picks his senior season. It was one of the greater high school senior seasons in Texas football history. The kid was recruited by some schools as a safety because he was small. But it had nothing to do with him being in a sophisticated passing offense, and a developed passer.
Now Coker. Coker on the other hand, was a 6'5 225 lb prototype. Big time arm, big time athlete, but very raw as a passer.
I'm not sure what your analogy was, because here you couldn't have two kids more different than one another. But if your point was they were both 3 stars, so if Coker played, he could have been Johnny Manziel as well, you couldn't be more wrong. They were exact opposites. One was a polished, decorated passer, the other was wing T QB that had A LOT to learn to be a QB at a high D1 level.
As far as Trickett, he threw two picks in a half, and fumbled as well. He frankly shit down his leg. I'll be floored if he doesn't transfer before fall ball next year. Floored.
Wow. I've been out all day and people have really worked themselves up about nothing. Entertaining stuff. Continue, please.
I don't have "buddies" on this board.
I never said Green should get 10-15 touches per game. That's ludicrous. (JWR should, though, that's for sure! More "I" formation, please, Jimbo!)
Your'e right, our offense was stellar against Murray St, Savannah St, WF, Duke, BC.
Not so much against teams that play defense: VT, UF.
Don't be fooled by our offensive numbers. Numbers are often misleading.
Limited playbook tailored to keep EJ from turning ball over. Passing concepts limited to slants, smash, curl/flat, switch, waggle, screens, Houston.
Watch the UF game again - receivers were open, OL gave EJ a ton of time. We solved their masterful secondary.
EJ was awful against UF.
EJ played very poorly against both VT and UF. The playcalling and scheme worked great in each. Receivers were running open for days. If EJ from two years ago played in those games, we throw for 350 plus and win both going away. Unforced errors and missed throws killed the offense in both games. Pass blocking was great in both.
Run blocking was impossible at VT since they were scheming to sell out against the run and moot against UF because of playing from behind.
I meant to say those that agree with your thoughts on the offense. Not buddies. My apologies. Perhaps cohort would have been more accurate. It seems that most of those that are complaining about the offense are making points that either show a lack of understanding of the games they are citing, or are just plain silly.
If we run more I formation, Jimbo isn't being aggressive enough and spreading it out. If we spread it out, Jimbo is abandoning the power run game. If we throw it, we should be running it to close out the clock. If we run it, we should be throwing to show some "killer instinct."
The problem is you simply can't please the fanbase because it's heterogeneous. Everyone wants something different, even though they call it the same things: aggression, killer instinct, etc.
Fair enough. True. You can't please everyone.
Coker played safety his sophomore year and backed up McCarron, who was a senior. He played qb and safety his junior year and played safety as needed his senior year. His coach said he could play safety in college. He was not a qb growing up, played defensive end, running back, linebacker, and wide receiver.
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